Radio iPods on the way?

Ryan - If the ipod has digital radio, wouldn't that effectively end the argument of lack of competition for mobile nationwide radio? Cell phones with radio, ipods with radios. Where is the argument?

Agreed. The iPod would move beyond a cached device and into a Live device. Add to that, the business model would allow them to make money off of free Internet Radio services ("like this song? Buy it from iTunes now!") and not require a subscription or an ad-based revenue stream.

I'm doubtful that Apple will extend the iPod beyond its own eco-system, but they're also keenly aware of trends in digital music (Sansa has Wifi, etc.). So I wouldn't put it past them from doing something like this.

>>>>>>If the ipod has digital radio, wouldn't that effectively end the argument of lack of competition for mobile nationwide radio?

No. There is a difference, a significant difference, between HD Radio and Satellite Radio. HD Radio has limited range, while Satellite Radio is available nationwide.

There would STILL be no competition for sat radio that offers 100 channels -- THE SAME 100 channels, available on a national basis -- which is a key attribute of satellite radio.

"There would STILL be no competition for sat radio that offers 100 channels -- THE SAME 100 channels, available on a national basis -- which is a key attribute of satellite radio."

Hasn't Cell phone radio already been doing it that for a long time now?

>>> Hasn't Cell phone radio already been doing it that for a long time now?

Do you really believe it is reasonable to suggest that cell phones are meaningful competition for satellite radio?

Also if the iPod offers wifi internet radio, you are talking about 1 million channels available on the net not 100.

Have no fear! It's just a video-enabled Nano.

There were some true Sirius/iPod rumours. As in, they spoke, they didn't agree: nothing more.

What I would really like, and there isn't a hope in hell of it happening, is for my iPod to sync the last few days of Stern. It's possible, with a shitload of work, to make this happen, but screw it. (Schedule audio captures... Plug into an RSS feed... Like these are things I know how to do!)

The Stiletto 2 is coming! May it continue to get smaller and smaller because my Stiletto 10 is still massive next to my Nano!

"Do you really believe it is reasonable to suggest that cell phones are meaningful competition for satellite radio?"

Absolutely! I think Ryan has already posted that one cell phone radio and music service has over a million subs to date and they have content deals with news sports and entertainment programming in addition to music channels. I don't believe anyone would argue thats its already been proven to be competition by the number of subs and also channels available.

"Ryan - If the ipod has digital radio, wouldn't that effectively end the argument of lack of competition for mobile nationwide radio? Cell phones with radio, ipods with radios. Where is the argument?"

No. The only way they can be considered competition is if they offer the exact same channels, for an equivalent subscription fee, over the same portion of the spectrum. If they choose to offer WiFi, that won't be competition because they don't have a Bob Dylan channel. If they offer HD radio, that won't be competition because they don't charge a subscription fee. If they let you access any song in the entire iTunes library, that won't be competition because it's not "live" broadcasting.

Would you agree with that logic Stack?

Aren't you afraid that XM will jack up rates since they have a monopoly on MLB, uncensored O&A, Bob Dylan, Ellen, and Oprah?

Stackpointer - Here is a link to Ryan's post on Mspot with over 1 million subs

http://www.orbitcast.com/archives/mspot-adds-fox-sports-to-lineup-still-not-competition.html

"I'm doubtful that Apple will extend the iPod beyond its own eco-system,"

Not only doubtful, downright unbelievable. Apple is worse with their proprietarism than Sony. I would be outright shocked if they teamed up with another party on a digital music service.

>>> Here is a link to Ryan's post on Mspot with over 1 million subs

Yeah, I saw that -- but unfortunately, there is not any real data to set the context for those subscribers.

"Yeah, I saw that -- but unfortunately, there is not any real data to set the context for those subscribers."

Did you see the breadth of the radio content offered nationwide and mobile? Entertainment sports, music, news. All the nationwide radio stations genres you say are not offered anywhere else but satellite are offered there on Mspot. Pretty impressive offering of over 100 channels that you are looking for Stackpointer.

>>> Did you see the breadth of the radio content offered nationwide and mobile?

To be fair and honest about it, it could conceivably become a contender. I just don't think it is a significant item as yet. It certainly has far greater potential than HD Radio, which we were discussing, or terrestrial (analog) or Ipods as being considered "competition" for antitrust purposes-- since it does have some of the key attributes of satellite radio.

I am not in favor of creating a satellite radio monopoly on hopes or expectations that some other service is going to be an effective competitor for sat radio; once that monopoly is created, the damage is done and cannot be easily undone -- so this is a time where regulators absolutely must proceed with caution before throwing out a competitive situation in favor of a monopoly.

Sorry Stackpointer, but cell phone radio is already being offered and already competitive with Satellite radio. In fact the offerings almost mirror each other. Major sports like MLB, NFL, all music genres, brand name nationwide news and entertainment services - Fox Disney etc. Thats not the future. Its already here and offered nationwide and in a mobile device.

"Sorry Stackpointer, but cell phone radio is already being offered and already competitive with Satellite radio."

....maybe in terms of content. But you can't honestly think that listening to channels on a cell phone, in less than superb audio quality or RELIABLE nationwide coverage, can compare to SDARS today. This is something that WiFi will probably reign in 7-10 years.

>>> Did you see the breadth of the radio content offered nationwide and mobile?

To be fair and honest about it, it could conceivably become a contender. I just don't think it is a significant item as yet. It certainly has far greater potential than HD Radio, which we were discussing, or terrestrial (analog) or Ipods as being considered "competition" for antitrust purposes-- since it does have some of the key attributes of satellite radio.

I am not in favor of creating a satellite radio monopoly on hopes or expectations that some other service is going to be an effective competitor for sat radio; once that monopoly is created, the damage is done and cannot be easily undone -- so this is a time where regulators absolutely must proceed with caution before throwing out a competitive situation in favor of a monopoly.

"Sorry Stackpointer, but cell phone radio is already being offered and already competitive with Satellite radio."

....maybe in terms of content. But you can't honestly think that listening to channels on a cell phone, in less than superb audio quality or RELIABLE nationwide coverage, can compare to SDARS today. This is something that WiFi will probably reign in 7-10 years.

"Sorry Stackpointer, but cell phone radio is already being offered and already competitive with Satellite radio."

....maybe in terms of content. But you can't honestly think that listening to channels on a cell phone, in less than superb audio quality or RELIABLE nationwide coverage, can compare to SDARS today. This is something that WiFi will probably reign in 7-10 years.

Listening on a cell phone is a fucking joke. You can't get the content you get with SDARS on a cell phone. I can't record content to my cell phone. Sure there may be a million internet radio sites, that doesn't make any of them worth listening to. This could indeed be one area in the future that could be national competition but for now it's a much smaller segment of the market than even SDARS themselves. I know a few people with XM or Sirius (though not many) I know no one that uses their cell phone for music. I have a KRZR and don't even load music to it. What a horrible listening experience.

>>> I know no one that uses their cell phone for music.

I'm kind of in the same camp -- a private company claiming a million subscribers doesn't do it for me. I don't believe it is a significant presence as yet -- though it may be at some point.

Would someone please give StackPointer his own blog. I am so tired of the StackPointer point of view on this once excellent blog called OrbitCast.

Just because its shitty doesnt mean its not competetion. stack really lost his mojo with this one. His argument gets silly, wait wait, its not competetion because not enough people have it, i mean , i mean, its not competetion bc its not as good.
There are clearly many forms of competetion, and more on the horizon.

pfreak- "I can't record content to my cell phone."
ok, my brother cant record content on his base model unit either.

"Sure there may be a million internet radio sites, that doesn't make any of them worth listening to."
well- some disagree, again, its not competetion bc its worse?

the Anon. coward made a great satirical point above, go back and read it again. opponents of this merger act like every possible aspect of the competitor needs to be literally the same. At least I pray it is a satire.

In the same line of thinking, satellite radio consumers are those who, thru the years until the release of commercial satellite radio, sat in silence in thier automobiles. These customers, when they deactivate, either go to the other provider or go back to sitting in silence. If it were one satrad company, some of these customers would pay hundreds of dollars a month, or sit in silence, bc for them, there is no substitute.
The NAB, is vehemently against this not bc it is competing for listeners ears, but bc they are genuinely concerned for the well being of the american citizen/comsumer.

Being anti-merger in this case requires quite a bit of "suspending disbelief."

"I know no one that uses their cell phone for music. "

There are more Cell phone music listeners today than there are satellite radio subs. Millions more. I believe the last documented number was 24 million people listening to music on their cell phones.

"I believe the last documented number was 24 million people listening to music on their cell phones."

Is this cell phone provided content, or simply a cell phone with a built-in mp3 player?
Chances are it's the latter.

Yeah, I see them every day crowded around someone's cell phone, speaker cranked and just awful shit sound coming out. Sorry, name me one cell phone that gives me the choice of content, sound quality and ease of use as SDARS. Maybe in the next 5-10 years I could see it but for now if you are listening to music on your phone it's because you're a cheap ass.

I suppose the digital cameras in cell phones is a reasonable substitute for a real digital camera and thus are competing against them instead of providing a worse experience, same goes for video recorders on phones. And yes, if the option is worse, then it is not an option. How is something in the consumers best interest if the options are worse? Sure I can get rid of Sat Radio and replace it with many things but I don't consider any of them a true replacement. A shitty internet station with limited playlists or playlists w/o a recognizable act are worse options and do not count. I don't have a computer in my car to listen to internet stations either.

And I know not everyone can record from their base unit but everyone has the option of buying a radio that can do this.

There are also hundreds of millions of cellphones out there. You throw out a figure of 24 million with nothing to back it up but I'll take you at your word. That means about .005% of cellphone users are listening to music on them, some competition. And like I said, blasting hip hop out of a shitty cellphone's mono speaker is not competition, it's just a bunch of MTV fans trying to be cool.

I just checked the numbers. Music enabled cell phones. Its probably a lot higher now since this was from January.

http://www.bridgeratings.com/press_01.25.2007-MusicCellphones.htm

Great link, did you read it? It states that 23.5m have music enabled phones, just like I do. In fact, most people own a music enabled cell phone and don't even know it. The most popular phone ever, the Razor is able to play back MP3 & WAV files. That doesn't mean people are using them. In your article it said almost no one was using them for downloading or streaming, just a small percentage that loads their own music.

So again, a percentage so small it is currently statistically insignificant of cell users listen to music on their cell with shit quality. How is that competing directly against SDARS exactly? What channel on my cell phone do I get Stern or O&A? What channel is MLB or the NFL on? How much more do I have to pay to use my minutes to listen to streaming music? How do I record content for later listening? How do I plug it into my car or home stereo?

And you do realize that if you're not streaming content you're using a cell phone like an iPod right?

You misread the link. It said a small percentage are downloading over the air as compared to the higher percentage downloading from the PC to the cellphone.

And yes you can get major sports- ie all MLB games broadcast on your cellphone.

>>>> the Anon. coward made a great satirical point above, go back and read it again. opponents of this merger act like every possible aspect of the competitor needs to be literally the same.

Nobody has ever said any of these things aren't "competition". The question is whether any are economic "substitutes", and they are NOT because all of these so-called competitors lack fundamental characteristics of satellite radio which would be essential for any reasonable economic substitute.

Terrestrial - lacks a national platform, subscription model, cannot deliver commercial-free programming;

IPods - lacks any realtime delivery capability and even with HD Radio embedded would not be able to deliver content on a nationwide basis;

Cellphones - At this point, vapor. Maybe some day. Then, we can talk about it (it is worth noting that cellphones have received scarcely a mention by the companies desiring this merger, and there is a good reason for it -- economically, as a competitor, it is nonexistent).

Wifi/Wimax - No business model as yet.

You just have to be a little bit reasonable about these things; to be a "substitute" you have to have a meaningful role in the marketplace. Cellphones, as music devices in CARS, simply don't have such a role at this point in time. It could be at a future date, maybe, but right now, it is not there.

It would be utterly dumb to hand XM and Sirius a monopoly on satellite radio because of some "competitor" for which economic viability cannot even be determined.

Cellphones - At this point, vapor. Maybe some day. Then, we can talk about it (it is worth noting that cellphones have received scarcely a mention by the companies desiring this merger, and there is a good reason for it -- economically, as a competitor, it is nonexistent).

What?? Scarcely a mention??? Good Lord LOL Obviously you haven't been following the company filings or the merger process at all. Thats funny.

FCC filing

5. Mobile Phones

Mobile phones represent another significant and expanding means of enjoying audio entertainment. Approximately 75 percent of all Americans currently own a mobile phone,98 and the possibility of content delivery has not been lost on wireless carriers. Several carriers are offering their subscribers audio entertainment options today.99 For example, Sprint currently offers subscribers over 50 channels of radio and streaming video that Sprint subscribers can access on their device for a monthly fee and offers music download capabilities for a one-time fee.100 AT&T (formerly Cingular Wireless) provides numerous music-capable handsets and Subscribers are taking advantage of these offerings in dramatically growing numbers. Today, approximately 23.5 million wireless subscribers own phones with integrated music players.104 In addition, nearly 20 percent of the wireless phones purchased in the third quarter of 2006 were music-capable.105 This demonstrated consumer interest in music-capable handsets likely will skyrocket in a matter of months when AT&T and Apple make the Apple iPhone available for sale.106

Wireless carriers are rapidly accelerating their provision of music and other content-based services. Indeed, the nation’s two largest cellular operators, AT&T and Verizon Wireless, have both announced their intentions to integrate Qualcomm’s MediaFLO chipsets into their handsets and to market MediaFLO services, which provide a multi-channel video and audio subscription service in the 20 largest markets in the country (with subsequent expansion to smaller markets planned in coming years).107 Wireless carriers have also invested billions of dollars to deploy their own advanced networks that allow for the provision of high-speed data services, such as music downloading and audio streaming.

A lot more on this here

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/seccapsule/seccapsule.asp?m=f&c=115922&fid=4771360&dc=

After reading some of the posts here today I really gotta ask this - Are any of you guys actually following this merger story or you just picked up on it in the last couple of weeks? The lack of information here is almost beyond belief.

i love the argument that SDARS has good SQ. i mean come on guys the SQ in all these formats is disgusting! this generation has been raised on sub par SQ and is happy with it because most all of them get it for free!

> What?? Scarcely a mention??? Good Lord LOL Obviously you haven't been following the company filings or the merger process at all. Thats funny.

Right. That is scarcely a mention compared with the attention that has been focused on terrestrial radio as a competitor. The fact is that for Mel to make this happen, he has got to get sat radio classified as a direct competitor with terrestrial radio because the rest of it (Ipods, cellphones, Wimax) all has significant problems that can be shot down in an instant. So, he has had to roll the dice and try to convince people that satellite radio is just another incarnation of terrestrial.